mlah The “culture” that has evolved here isn’t conducive to sissies

November 11, 2007

War and Political Parties

Filed under: Politics — mlah @ 8:31 am

george bush’s future, and potentially the future of the republican party depends on the utcome of the iraq war.

so it goes too for the democratic party.

but both parties hope for opposite results.

a cessation of hostilities, and a return to semi normal civiliaztio in baghdad, and iraq, would mean success for the bush doctrine. it would mean most likely success for the the republicans in the coming election as well.

the oppostire is true for the dhimmicrats. they ae still asking, ‘is it vietnam yet?’. as us fatalities mount, democrats wail, and their future looks brighter.

so who do you associate yourself with?

a party who needs, and wants more us servicemen to die? who wants the us to lose in iraq so they may win at the polls?

or a party who wants the us to win? a party who actually does what it says?

kind of fucked up isn’t it?

11 Comments »

  1. I read an interesting article that I suppose Gus should comment on to give us the BDS sufferers’ POV. The headline is “Iraq is not his fault (It’s yours)” with the picture of W on the front cover. Article by Alasdair Roberts called “The War We Deserve”. Roberts deconstructs the Dhimmy argument that the Iraq adventure is a neocon cabalist hijacking of the democratic process. Check it out at Foreign Policy. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/

    Comment by yup — November 11, 2007 @ 9:36 am

  2. nice to hear from you yup. what did you decide?

    Comment by mlah — November 11, 2007 @ 9:39 am

  3. Decision in abeyance until at least a week from tomorrow.

    Comment by yup — November 11, 2007 @ 3:28 pm

  4. mlah: “a cessation of hostilities, and a return to semi normal civiliaztio in baghdad, and iraq, would mean success for the bush doctrine. it would mean most likely success for the the republicans in the coming election as well.”
    It’s extremely unlikely that things will mellow out by next Election Day. And even if it does in Bagdhad, the Surge came with an expiration date– we won’t be able to continue it after a certain point without instituting a draft. No major political issues have been resolved (which is what the Surge was designed to give breathing room for). And the south of the country is now ramping up with shia-on-shia power struggles. Mookie al-Sadr has officially taken his Mahdi army to the sidelines for now, but that could end at some point.

    Dems don’t want US forces to die, or for the US to lose the war, asshole. The people of our country are getting increasingly weary of the war that W started. That’s why Dems won the 2006 elections, and that’s why we’ll win the 2008 elections to an even greater degree. He took a gamble and lost, for now at least– so quit your whining. It’ll be 10-20 years before we can pass judgement on whether it was ultimately worth it, but the short term can only be viewed as a failure for most Rethuglicans.

    Yup, that Roberts article is subscription only.

    Have a happy Veterans Day, if you can. 25% of all American homeless people are vets, and 2007 has been the deadliest year yet for US troops in Iraq. 48,000 Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have been diagnosed with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. Heckuva job, Bushies.

    Comment by Gus — November 11, 2007 @ 7:28 pm

  5. Can I please not get drafted? I don’t want to end up like these guys:

    http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?collectionId=1272

    Comment by medium john — November 11, 2007 @ 8:51 pm

  6. [T]he Surge came with an expiration date– we won’t be able to continue it after a certain point without instituting a draft.

    Care to provide the authoritative analysis behind this assertion?

    Yup, that Roberts article is subscription only.

    Dude, read it whilst sitting at Borders drinking a mocha!

    25% of all American homeless people are vets

    Considering most male citizens of a certain age were eligible for the draft there is a large chance that a goodly amount of any given population demographic were in uniform at one time in their lives. Elvis died of drugs — should we conclude therefore that our country faces a critical situation in which military veterans have drug problems?

    48,000 Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have been diagnosed with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

    Compare that to the number of personnel similarly affected from Gulf War I, Vietnam, Korea and WWII (think Audie Murphy). During the Clinton years there was an active effort to suppress diagnosis and treatment for Gulf War vets for just such maladies, but you never decried the poor care provided to our vets then, now did you? For that matter, I would bet that many of those 25% of homeless veterans you cited could be similarly diagnosed with PTSD. Veterans’ health care is getting more attention now than before — we pretty much ignored the WWII and Korea vets, we wanted to shun the Vietnam era vets, we wanted to deny any problems with the Gulf War era vets, and now our society is focusing on GWOT vet care issues (largely for political reasons, but heck, at least it’s attention). Do recall that MacArthur lead a cavalry charge against peacefully-gathered WWI veterans and their families, resulting in numerous deaths; veterans’ care has come a long way, baby. It’s not perfect — but then again, neither is HMO-sponsored care.

    Heckuva job, Bushies

    Are you implying that Bush somehow created PTSD? You don’t think that it is a common affliction for people in violent conflict situation? Including civilians — care to wager there’s a lot of people in Afghanistan and Iraq suffering the same, even prior to our military operations?

    the short term can only be viewed as a failure

    Since the American electorate cannot think beyond the electoral cycle, a short-term failure will become a permanent failure. Lucky for us, France has vowed to maintain their nation-building efforts until the job is done. When we bag out because Democrats force the issue, at least somebody will be there to try to keep the pieces in place.

    2007 has been the deadliest year yet for US troops in Iraq

    Ah, but the “surge” has taken effect and lowered the amount of killings. Overall the death toll is high, but the results of the surge have been positive. Compare statistics for the last three months to the entire year and you will find a marked difference. Unless you care not to admit the changing circumstances.

    Comment by yup — November 13, 2007 @ 1:52 pm

  7. Yup: “Considering most male citizens of a certain age were eligible for the draft there is a large chance that a goodly amount of any given population demographic were in uniform at one time in their lives.”

    Although veterans make up about 11 percent of the civilian adult population, they represent 26 percent of homeless people

    –National Alliance to End Homelessness
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004003475_homeless09.html

    “Care to provide the authoritative analysis behind this assertion?”
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240821,00.html

    “Compare that to the number of personnel similarly affected from Gulf War I, Vietnam, Korea and WWII”
    I don’t have those numbers. Do you? Whatever they might be, this is our present reality, and it makes me sad. If you had such numbers, what would they mean to this discussion? “Well, there are fewer today [though surely more than Gulf War I], so everything’s peachy and the invasion of Iraq must have been worthwhile”?

    “During the Clinton years there was an active effort to suppress diagnosis and treatment for Gulf War vets for just such maladies”
    What do you base that on? I found this on the gov’s Clinton WH site that, while speaking more broadly, says they did a lot:

    Under the Clinton Administration, the Veterans Administration (VA) has redoubled its efforts to provide quality mental health services. The VA instituted an accountability system and has increased its services to special populations, including homeless veterans and veterans with PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The VA currently treats over 25,000 homeless veterans per year and outcomes of those treated in residential facilities have improved steadily from 1993-1999 in the areas of housing, employment and clinical status. The VA also treats over 50,000 vets per year in specialized PTSD programs and inpatient PTSD outcomes have improved in recent years.

    “but you never decried the poor care provided to our vets then, now did you?”
    I wasn’t really politically active then, as I’ve told you several times before. You, on the other hand, seem to still be living in those years. Move on!

    “Are you implying that Bush somehow created PTSD?”
    Yeah, dur! Of course, everyone knows that Bush created PTSD! You need to be slapped sometimes, Yup. He brought us into Iraq, which was the occasion for the 48.000 servicefolks to get PTSD, was my point, which really shouldn’t need any fucking clarification. Are you one of our brain-damaged vets, or do you just naturally get a kick out of asking brain-damaged questions?

    “You don’t think that it is a common affliction for people in violent conflict situation? Including civilians — care to wager there’s a lot of people in Afghanistan and Iraq suffering the same, even prior to our military operations?”
    No shit. So what?

    “Compare statistics for the last three months to the entire year and you will find a marked difference. Unless you care not to admit the changing circumstances.”
    I see what’s going on. I just doubt it can be sustained.

    Comment by Gus — November 13, 2007 @ 10:11 pm

  8. No shit. So what? — Gus

    well, i guess that’s a primary difference between liberals and conservatives.

    liberlas say they give a shit. conservatives actually try to do something about it.

    oooop! well, apparently, according to gus. liberals don’t even say they give a shit.

    Comment by mlah — November 14, 2007 @ 6:42 am

  9. mlah: “well, i guess that’s a primary difference between liberals and conservatives.
    “liberlas say they give a shit. conservatives actually try to do something about it.
    “oooop! well, apparently, according to gus. liberals don’t even say they give a shit.”
    Lick mah balls, mlah. It wasn’t a rhetorical question when I asked “So what?” So answer it– how does that relate to this conversation? People get PTSD every day all over the world, and each and every one is a damnable shame. If Yup was suggesting, however, that MORE Iraqis or Afghanis were getting traumatized before our invasions of those countries, then he’s full of shit.

    Comment by Gus — November 14, 2007 @ 8:33 pm

  10. Gus’ authoritative source that the U.S. operations in Iraq will force the reinstitution of the draft: Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y ‘Nuff said.

    Regarding the Clinton administration’s bid to help veterans of Gulf War I who suffered from PTSD, Gus says I found this on the gov’s Clinton WH site that, while speaking more broadly, says they did a lot Well gee, and Bubba also said he never had sex with that woman, and that sure says a lot, too, huh? I spent 9 years in D.C. and dealt with a lot of folks seeking treatment at Walter Reed and Bethesda. My personal experience tends to make me laugh at your relial on political statements.

    If Yup was suggesting, however, that MORE Iraqis or Afghanis were getting traumatized before our invasions of those countries, then he’s full of shit.

    Yeah, I suppose the public throat slittings on the willage square, which villagers were forced to attend, was much better than the relatively small number of people being killed because they harbor the terrorists in their homes. I suppose the rape rooms and muder-for-sport, the killing of those who spoke out against the regime, were not as bad as the Amis building schools and clinics. Yup, I can see how Gus would say that we have created the PTSD problems amongst the civilians of the developing world, and in particular those in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    As for the occurrence of PTSD, there are sufferers from any traumatic (e.g., combat) situation. Hell, there were even a few troops who got it from their experiences in the former Yugoslavia, Panama, and elsewhere. In other words, PTSD is a common affliction in combat forces. It happens to be an occupational hazard. We have become more sensitive to it, and have made treatment a higher priority than it was even a generation ago. Hence, the high number of diagnoses. Do you honestly believe, Gus, that the numbers were not as high, if not higher, for previous generations of warriors? As for blaming Bush for the current crop of PTSD veterans, well sure. Just like it was FDR’s fault for those of WWII (FDR killed Audie Murphy!), just like it was Truman’s fault for Korea, just like it was Johnson’s (and Kennedy’s) fault for Vietnam, etc.

    However, to quote Gus yet again, ? People get PTSD every day all over the world, and each and every one is a damnable shame. And as Mlah points out, Gus’ response to that is No shit. So what? In other words, Gus admits that PTSD just happens because life is bad sometimes, and he really doesn’t give a rat’s butt, except when he can blame it on Bush. There goes that BDS off the scales again…

    Gus, refering to the security situation in Iraq, says I see what’s going on. I just doubt it can be sustained. Yet he previously stated that the Iraq adventure is breaking the US military and will cause a reintroduction of the draft. He even uses a story from Fox News, because supposedly it’s a conservative (Republican) mouthpiece and cannot be refuted by conservatives. Read the article: ‘sources’ quoted are either anonymous or retirees who make their livings off of explaining to the plebian masses the mysteries of the military world (in other words, they generate more business for themselves if they stir things up), or a political hack who himself raised the spectre of the draft and then used his own prognostication to accuse the administration of plotting to reinstitute the draft, so as to attack the opposition during the previous full and biannual electoral cycles. So to Gus, I say: the sky is falling! Now I want you to get all pumped up about the sky falling and demand of the government that it do something to prop up the sky! That way my power increases. Hahahahaha!

    Now, in a more rational debate, would I admit that the current optempo is hurting retention? Damn skippy. What the government must consider is changing the way it fights (which is evident in the new military mission of AFRICOM), dedicate more cashola (our post-9/11 defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP are still only half of what they were during the 50-year period of the Cold War, per the Roberts article I mentioned previously), and rethink its strategic planning (as regards incessant deployments) if it intends to retain a strong professional career force. But have no fear, I don’t get paid for presenting my opinions (at least, not on this topic), my job doesn’t depend on the government taking my suggestions, and I don’t want your vote.

    Comment by yup — November 15, 2007 @ 9:05 am

  11. Yup: “Gus’ authoritative source that the U.S. operations in Iraq will force the reinstitution of the draft: Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y ‘Nuff said.”
    How abour Lawrence Korb?

    [H]e obtained his Master’s Degree in 1962, before joining the U.S. Navy in 1962. Korb served on active duty for four years as a Naval Flight Officer, and retired from the Naval Reserve with the rank of Captain. On completing his active duty, Korb returned to graduate school, where he received his PhD at the State University of New York Albany in 1969. He served as Professor of Management at the Naval War College in 1975-1980… Korb served an advisor to the Reagan-Bush election committee in 1980 and was then appointed Assistant Secretary of Defense (Manpower, Reserve Affairs, Installations and Logistics) from 1981 to 1985…. Korb was a Senior Fellow and Director of National Security Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Korb
    Here’s what he told Congress in April ’07:

    “The current use of ground forces in Iraq represents a complete misuse of the all-volunteer military,” he said.
    The all-volunteer force was never designed for a protracted ground war, but that is exactly what it faces, he said.
    “If the United States is going to have a significant component of its ground forces in Iraq over the next five, 10, 15 or 30 years, then the responsible course is for the president and those supporting this open-ended and escalated presence in Iraq to call for reinstating the draft.”

    http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/military_groundforces_draft_070417w/

    Or Andrew Krepinevich?

    Dr. Krepinevich has served as a consultant on military affairs for many senior government officials, including several secretaries of defense, the CIA’s National Intelligence Council, and all four military services, as well as the current U.S. Ambassador to Iraq… He has taught a wide variety of national security and defense policymaking courses while on the faculties of West Point, George Mason University, The Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies and Georgetown University… Following an Army career that spanned twenty-one years, Dr. Krepinevich retired to become the president of what is now the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments… A graduate of West Point, Dr. Krepinevich holds an MPA and Ph.D. from Harvard University. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.

    http://www.csbaonline.org/2006-1/5.AboutUs/Staff_Directory.dir/Krepinevich,_Andrew.php
    “Like Korb, Krepinevich mentioned a military draft as a possibility” (same ArmyTimes article as above).

    “Well gee, and Bubba also said he never had sex with that woman, and that sure says a lot, too, huh? I spent 9 years in D.C. and dealt with a lot of folks seeking treatment at Walter Reed and Bethesda. My personal experience tends to make me laugh at your relial on political statements.”
    If Clinton’s statement was untrue, I’m sure W’s people would have made a taken it off the site by now– or at least someone would have made a fuss about it. Show me something, anything, that proves his statement wrong. You must be able to back up your serious allegation of “an active effort to suppress diagnosis and treatment for Gulf War vets for just such maladies” with more than your personal experiences in this matter (though I’d be interested to hear about them as well). You’re not confusing PTSD with “Gulf War Syndrome”, are you? That’s a whole other kettle ‘o fish. And FYI: “relial” isn’t a real word.

    “Yeah, I suppose the public throat slittings on the willage square, which villagers were forced to attend, was much better than the relatively small number of people being killed because they harbor the terrorists in their homes. I suppose the rape rooms and muder-for-sport, the killing of those who spoke out against the regime, were not as bad as the Amis building schools and clinics.”

    So the only cases of Iraqi civilian PTSD to happen because the US invaded have been among those who harbor terrorists? Yet there has been violence perpetrated by/on every combination of Sunni, Shi’ite, Kurd, Arab, etc. that was precipitated by the invasion, as well, that you have to take into account. Sectarian torture, failing public health standards, almost 4 million combined internal/external displaced people, crime and kidnappings have all created mayhem and death that could lead to PTSD in surviving individuals far beyond the levels of Saddam’s Iraq. You can’t just count directly US-inflicted damage (though you undercount that too, missing all the bombings– which are on the upswing– all the stray gunfire, all the oops-sorry-wrong-guy-to-drag-out-and-beat-up-or-kill-in-front-of-his-family situations, etc.). Get outta here with your “building schools and clinics” garbage– talk about Kumbayah! (What or who is “the Amis”, btw?)

    “Do you honestly believe, Gus, that the numbers were not as high, if not higher, for previous generations of warriors?”
    As a percentage of the total force deployed, the GWOT is probably just as bad as previous conflicts, except maybe Vietnam, I would guess. There were many more millions deployed in earler conflicts, many of whom just peeled potatoes or painted hulls a lot of the time. Today, more are being incentivized (i.e. bribed) to re-up again and again or otherwise kept in by stop-loss. More tours, more often, more geared toward combat roles = more opportunities for PTSD. Nam was a big clusterfuck any way you look at it, though.

    “As for blaming Bush for the current crop of PTSD veterans, well sure.”
    Good, I’m glad you agree.

    “Gus’ response to that is No shit. So what? In other words, Gus admits that PTSD just happens because life is bad sometimes, and he really doesn’t give a rat’s butt, except when he can blame it on Bush. There goes that BDS off the scales again…”
    I soooo cannot wait for your CDS to flare up (again!)!
    As I said, any case of PTSD is a crying shame. A couple of my old girlfriends had been raped and still suffered from it. My best friend is dating a Colombian guy who got it in military prison there. The shit she tells me makes my blood run cold. He is the sweetest guy who can become a quaking, crying, blood-vomiting mess, triggered by bright lights, loud music, certain smells (they can remind him of the “mystery soup” sometimes served with human fingers in it). My heart goes out to each and every person so unfairly and permanently afflicted. My “No shit. So what?” referred narrowly to your bringing up pre-invasion levels of PTSD with no accompanying claim attached to it, as if that was enough. It is common in war zones, for combatants and civilians, as you say– but Iraq was an elective war, dammit!

    “He even uses a story from Fox News, because supposedly it’s a conservative (Republican) mouthpiece and cannot be refuted by conservatives.”
    That would be… let’s see… because it is!

    “Read the [FoxNews] article: ’sources’ quoted are either anonymous or retirees who make their livings off of explaining to the plebian masses the mysteries of the military world (in other words, they generate more business for themselves if they stir things up)”
    Do you disagree with any of their assertions though? Can you prove otherwise? Fox has a great relationship with the military, and since active-duty folks aren’t supposed to talk about some things, and you’re only free to speak when you retire, I see no problem with that. Fox presumably contacted them because they were trustworthy subject-experts. If you can’t prove ulterior motives, then you should probably stop suggesting that these veterans are “betraying us”, you damned commie troop-hater.

    Comment by Gus — November 18, 2007 @ 1:21 am

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